Dave:
People have been screaming about the silver tsunami for more than a decade. But what does the recent data and a new analysis say about housing demand in the generations to come? How will builder sentiment and construction trends potentially offset some lower housing demand? And will one of the hottest asset classes in real estate get banned from major metro areas? Today, we’re going through the most important headlines, making news in the real estate world. This is on the market. Let’s get to it. James, Kathy, what’s going on? How are you, Kathy?

Kathy:
I am doing amazing. I’m in Snowbird’s Business Center. I hope nobody’s planning on doing any business today because I’m dominating this room today. But I had a very surprising wake up this morning. There was eight inches of fresh pow, and I can’t even believe it. It’s somehow this season just came at the end of April.

Dave:
I’m so jealous. James, how are you? Are you as good as you look right

James:
Now? I just got good lighting going on I think right now. That’s really what it is.

Dave:
All right. Well, we got housing market activity to talk about. Me, Kathy, and James each brought a story. Henry, by the way, I think is at his daughter’s dance recital, which is just adorable. So we’re going to let him off the hook for that. But we have important stories to talk about today. And I think I’m just going to go first because I just read this super interesting article. It’s not exactly news, but it is a new data analysis just about housing and demographics in general. This is written by Bill McBride who writes a blog called Calculated Risk. It’s really good. I don’t know if you guys follow this at all, but really good information. I do. Sort of famously called the 2008 crash, Bill McBride. He’s often write about this stuff. And so he released this analysis of the question I think we’ve all been wondering for 10 or 15 years.
Is the silver tsunami a real thing? And if so, what does it mean? So before I get into some of the data Bill shared, Kathy and James, we’ve all been hearing about this for a decade. Kathy, what do you make of the idea that there is a silver tsunami and does it matter to you?

Kathy:
Well, yeah, because I am going to be silver sometime soon.

Dave:
It matters a

Kathy:
Lot. You’re part of the tsunami. I am. No, I looked at the chart. I didn’t like it. I didn’t like it how it’s going real down on the baby boomers. That basically means death.

Dave:
That is what it means.

Kathy:
But it’s very obvious if you just pull back and say the baby boomers were a huge, huge demographic. The millennials as well, which is basically their kids. So when the baby boomers, this huge demographic starts to age, things are going to change. Anything that the boomers did, it affected society. When they all wanted to buy homes, guess what? Prices went up. When they all invested the stock market, stocks went up. Well, as they start to kick the bucket, then we’re going to have more homes on the market. The question is, is it going to be all at once? Of course not. It’s a big generation, 20 years. So yes, of course, the ones on the higher end of that, and facing the 80s, they’re going to basically the article saying historically they’re moving, they might be moving, changing their situation. And then you’ve got the millennials, what are they going to be doing?
But the bulk of those people, that means there’s a big generation, but behind it is a smaller one. If you’ve got a big one, then behind it’s a smaller one. So that’s what so often we fail to see. We kind of failed to see this big group coming. We weren’t prepared for it. Now everybody’s building. And as it moves through the system, there’s not enough people behind them maybe for all the new housing that’s about to be built.

Dave:
Right. And it just feels, to me at least, like a little bit that the timing is a little odd, right? Because all the building is happening as we’re not yet, but sort of entering a time where millennials are going to be sort of past the peak home buying age and will be in Gen Z, which is a smaller generation. I should say it’s not that much smaller of a generation though. It is. I think it really starts to get smaller when you get into like, what is it? Gen Alpha is the one after that. That will have implications, but I’m just curious what you think make of the timing of all of this. Are we building too many homes to the point where, yeah, we’re in a housing deficit now, but could the pendulum swing back all the way in the other direction?

Kathy:
Well, it appears to be, and a part of that, a huge part of it is immigration. And we have seen a dramatic decline in immigration. Of course, we saw a massive growth of it over the prior four years, but that has come down dramatically. And let me tell you, multifamily operators are absolutely feeling that. They’re seeing more vacancies because there’s just fewer people needing those apartments. So yeah, you need people for real estate. And if you start to see a decline, whether it’s immigration or these large cohorts, these groups of people that maybe finally have found housing or there’s just fewer of them behind them. But I agree with you. There’s still a lot of people here in the US. There’s still plenty. But is the shortage of housing as big as the Trump administration just came out and said, it was 10 million or what

Dave:
Was it? They all range. I feel like it’s everywhere from one to 10 million. The more reliable, I feel like it’s like three to five million is kind of like the consensus average. Still a lot though. That’s a lot. And I agree, we’ve seen both ends of the spectrum on immigration, both legal and illegal immigration too, just so everyone knows. We did see a huge spike in, I think it was 22, 23 was the highest. Now both illegal and legal immigration is down nationally. And so we are seeing less demand from housing. And I’m curious, James, what do you make of this? Do you think this plays out in a way where we’re going to see less aggregate demand for housing? Could we go from a supply deficit to a supply glut and how long could that take?

James:
I mean, they have to start trading down. We see this all the time. A lot of the homes that we’re buying, we are buying a lot bigger homes that are, they need an update and then people are transitioning down into other products or they’re moving into … We buy a lot of probate deals and people that are transitioning into new housing. I would say we’ve done, we’re kind of a preferred buyer in our market for a lot of brokers and people that actually relocate people into even senior living. The weird thing is, I would say the deal flow the last three years on that segment has been at least 50% less than I’ve seen.

Dave:
You mean Boomers selling specifically?

James:
Boomers selling, but they’re not transitioning into old folk, at least from our data set. They’re just not transitioning as much. We work a lot of families that want a private sale where they can do it structured on their terms. They just want a dependable buyer. They want to be able to move out in a 90, 10, 20 day window and get relocated. The weird thing is that lead flow in companies that I know do that, they have almost no inventory going on.

Dave:
Interesting.

James:
And so it’s like, are they actually selling or … I think also a lot of these boomers too, I have been seeing that the families are moving back into the houses and now they are becoming just residents of the houses. So the houses aren’t changing hands.

Dave:
Yeah. We’re seeing more multi-generational living for sure for affordability, right?

James:
And is that going to come even more when the alphas come up? It’s like, are people moving back in because they just can’t make a pencil either way. They’re like, “Well, I could sell, get the money, but it doesn’t get me as far now.” And so I do think that could lead to an oversupply of product because the buyers aren’t there.

Dave:
Yeah. I think people have been screaming about the silver tsunami for 15 years. And I guess it was never going to be a tsunami. There was no scenario where all of these boomers sold at once. It’s just kind of crazy. And people say, “Oh my God, there’s like whatever, tens of millions of boomers.” I should mention, like James just said, one of the biggest groups of sellers is always people who are retiring and aging, right? Boomers are a bigger generation, but these people who point to, “Oh my God, there’s 20 million boomers.” Yeah, but there’s usually 15 in that same spot. So it’s not like it’s this huge thing. But then there’s also all these just societal trends, like James mentioned, people moving back in with each other. There’s a higher desire to age in place. We see that more people want to do that.
And then the same thing, boomers are also perhaps even more so impacted by the lock-in effect because downgrading is more expensive than staying in your home. A lot of these homes are paid off. Why would you move out of a paid off home to go pay for an expensive home with a six and a half percent mortgage rate? It doesn’t make any sense. And so I think it will happen. It’s just destiny. People are going to die, unfortunately, but that’s just going to happen. But I think it’s going to be longer and more drawn out than people say it is. But overall, after reading this, and I actually did an episode on the market a couple weeks ago, I do think there’s going to be less aggregate demand, not in the next five years, but if you get halfway into the 2030s and the 2040s, I think the pendulum will shift from under supplied to oversupplied market.
I don’t know if you guys agree, but I’m curious what you think the potential implications of that could be.

Kathy:
I mean, supply and demand is everything, right? If there’s more supply, not enough demand, prices level out or go down. So it’s hard to say what the future will be based on immigration policy, but that’s really the ticket. That’s the key because our birth rates are going down,
So that’s a problem. And when we look at other countries like Japan and China where they have low birth rates, but they also don’t have a lot of immigration, that’s a big problem for them. And so far, the US has been okay because we have been having babies, but that’s slowing down. And we also have been pretty open with our immigration policies and that’s changed dramatically. So something there, either people have to have more babies or we have to open up the gates or stop all the aggressive building. But again, I was right, the Trump administration did come out and say that we are short 10 million homes. And a new White House report lays out a blueprint to fix that. That’s from AP News. So again, if there’s government incentive to build more houses, we could do what we’ve done in the past and suddenly find ourselves overbuilt.

Dave:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I personally don’t see the birth rate changing much. I have a hard time imagining what changes that. There’s just a new report that came out two days ago that the average cost to raise a child in the United States now is $300,000. It’s crazy.

James:
Wow.

Dave:
For most people, that’s just unaffordable.
So there are other reasons people are having fewer children, but most people who say they’re having fewer children cite the cost of childcare and raising a child is the number one. I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Immigration policy, who knows. We’ve seen the pendulum swing back and forth the last couple of years. We don’t know where it’s going to be, but my feeling is we’re going to have less aggregate demand for housing. And I don’t think that means you can’t be a real estate investor. I actually think it creates some interesting challenges, but also opportunities. When I was reading this report and similar reports on it, it also talks about how baby boomers own some of the best real estate in the country and that we’re going to start to see really good inventory come on board. Now, we might not see the same across the board massive appreciation that we’ve seen when there was higher total demand, but you might be able to get really good assets and good locations.
And actually you mentioned Kathy, Japan. If you look at what happened in Japan, a lot of rural and suburban and tertiary markets have seen falling home prices, but prime locations are fine. They’re still growing. And I think that’s probably what’s going to happen here.

Kathy:
Yeah, you better be very careful what you buy. During 2009 when we had the housing crisis and there was just a glut of houses on the market, the areas like Stockton that are further

James:
Out,

Kathy:
Prices went down 75% because if you could live in the Bay Area, why would you be out an hour out of the city? We even heard of a developer who had built this whole community, 2009 hit. They just tore it all down. They’re like, “We can’t sell any of it. ” So you got to be very careful and more than ever be aware of don’t be too far out from jobs. I always like to be 10 to 15 minutes driving from jobs, from a strong job base, because those are the homes that are going to be in demand.

James:
And one thing about demand, it was interesting actually when we did that value add conference, I was talking to somebody and he was looking to buy a house because they lived in California. I’m like, “Well, where do you want to buy?” He’s like, “My mom doesn’t care. We’re going to the state with the lowest estate taxes.” And in this kind of report, did it talk a little bit about where these things are being bought? Because that’s a lot of the planning now. In Washington, you don’t want to die in Washington and have an estate. It’s the 20% estate tax in Washington
With an exemption of 2.2 million and it is one of the worst. And then the best states with zero estate tax or Arizona, Florida, Nevada, Texas, that might be a big trend for some of the silver tsunami because as people need more capital, I know for me, if I’m going to go, I hate to say this, die somewhere. I want to make sure my kids are being the most taken care of. It’s like, I’m going to go from die in one of these states with my estates, right? Yeah. And I wonder if that’s going to go into some of this planning and development like, “Hey, this is attractive to move your parents here and get their estate and everything rolled into these states.” Because when you’re talking about 20% different on your tax, that’s a huge, huge difference.

Dave:
Yeah. Well, this is something we’re all just going to have to watch. I feel very confident that even if there’s lower overall demand, there will be markets that grow, there will be markets that don’t. We’re just going to have to see how these things develop. Like James said, is it based on where boomers are moving, where I personally think there’s going to be a lot of labor market disruption in the next couple of years. How does that all settle out? Where are the job centers in the future? Maybe they’ll stay the same, maybe they won’t. We’re going to have to see that, but those are the things I’m personally going to keep watching. One of the big variables here though that we haven’t talked yet about is construction because we’ve talked about how much the birth rate and immigration, which is kind of on the demand side, but a big element of whether or not we go into a supply glut is how much we’re building.
And after the break, James is going to share with us some information about builder sentiment. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to On The Market. Kathy, James and I are here sharing the latest news and data we’re reviewing around the housing market. Before the break, we talked about the baby boomers, whether they’re going to sell, what it means, but we only really talked about the demand side, but there’s this whole supply side about how much construction happens in the US. That’s going to be a huge factor in whether this silver tsunami comes true. So James, tell us what’s going on with construction.

James:
US home builder sediment drops to seven month low in April. NABH survey says, and this is something I’ve been kind of paying attention to, especially the last 12 to 24 months, because I’m always looking where the opportunities are. I would say recently we’ve been able to pick up some property that has good development potential down the road and we’ve been able to do that because builders, man, they’re turning into kind of the rain clouds of the industry. When you talk to … I have a lot of clients that are builders, we’re builders. It is not looking good right now. And the P&Ls are saying it. I can say, “Hey, we haven’t made a whole lot of money building houses the last 12 to 24 months.” And the sediment is real. They’re saying now for 24 straight months, over 50% of builders have a negative outlook on the next 12 to 24 months.
And since the Iran conflict and the energy spike, it has now dropped to a seven-month low at 34%. So that means it’s 64% of builders, they just do not feel good about the market. And this is coming from material hits, transport costs, fuels up 35% since this conflict. And as you’re in the middle of your build and you’re going, “Okay, we’re getting hit with more costs in addition to now rates have jumped up.” Since the bombing of Iran, it’s gone from 6% to 6.3, 6.4 in weeks, and we’ve seen it kind of spiking every which way. And builders are just seeing higher costs across the board, whether it is their building costs are up because of energy prices, 70% of them are having problems selling their houses, according to this article. And addition to, they’re saying that over 60% of the transactions are still giving out a lot of buyer concessions.
So even if you’re showing a higher number and they’re dropping price, they’re still giving away a lot of money just to get that deal gone. And I think this is a major problem because even though Trump may have said that we’re short 10 million houses, there’s a lot of inventory coming online that is not being absorbed. Oh
Yeah. I mean, I was looking at in Kirkland, Washington, which is one of our best markets in Washington, it is like people want to live there. If I had to move back to Washington, I’d be moving into Kirkland. It’s great, great neighborhood. The absorption rate on new construction on cottages and daddos is like 13 to 14% right now. My business partner sent this off because we have some we’re building right now and there was like 35 came online and six went pending last month. Wow. And that’s a problem. So the thing about this is we might see a slowdown in builder start because even when I find good lots to sell, builders are like, “Eh, I really don’t want to look at this right now unless we can close on a permit and wait and have a long feasibility because they want to be able to spot check in.
” And so the aggressiveness of builders has definitely pulled back. Me and Dave just recently did a podcast on flipper sediment and that flippers are feeling good. It is completely opposite in the building community right now, at least for the guys that I’m dealing with. And the article talks about it. And when you have cost up, land has not dropped like it should. And 60% of properties are still giving incentives, plus they’re selling them for 5% less off list and they’re cutting price. You’re getting squeezed on all sides. Builders are really getting beat up right now.

Kathy:
Oh yeah. My builder sentiment is very low.

Dave:
The survey size of one is very low.

Kathy:
Yeah. I mean, we’ve got developments in very popular places like Bozeman, Montana. And that development, I mean, it’s a lot of homes that we’re building there, but over the past few years, they were selling steadily. It just came to a screeching halt over the past few months. We’re also in one of the fastest growing parts of Nevada right outside of Reno. And same thing, this is where so much new business is moving. We have a development there. It was really starting to pick up at the beginning of the year when rates went down, now crickets and you know holding costs are insane. And then on our other deal, we’re having to take price cuts. That’s the only way to move it. So great for buyers, very difficult time to be a builder for all the reasons James just said. The prices are high, the costs are high, the debt is high, the labor is high.
Inflation is real and yet the sales price is not inflated. So it’s tough.

Dave:
I want to talk just about sort of the implications for it. Sorry about this. First of all, that sucks. From a buyer perspective, it does present an interesting opportunity. Someone actually just sent me a whole build to rent community that they built and they were offering just off the bat without even negotiating 12.5% off list price. It’s like, okay, there’s some interesting things going on there, right? Yeah. So how do people take advantage of that? Because it was honestly a question I have for myself. I don’t think I’ll do this deal. It’s not in a market that I’m comfortable with, but I was like, where are the rest of those deals because I want to buy something like this?

Kathy:
And that’s the thing is our company is on both sides of this equation. We build houses, but we also buy them and we help people buy them. And we are in our single family rental fund in North Dallas, we are buying new homes at massive discounts for that very reason. Builders, you’ve got holding costs and those holding costs add up really very quickly. The construction loans are high. So if you can’t get out of that, you’re just losing money every single month. They’d rather just take a price cut. So in some cases, we’re getting stupid good deals on the buy side. On the sell side, it’s just one of those things where it’s business, it goes up and down right now. It’s not great. It was really good a few months ago.

James:
My thought is there needs to be housing inventory. If we’re short 10 million houses, where’s the opportunity? When there’s paying in certain sectors, building community, big apartment purchasing, right? The syndicators have been a little beat up on some things. There’s opportunities that come through and that’s what you want to look for is where is the opportunity? And it’s a really good time to snag a Burr property with a little bit of extra yard. If you’re in any kind of metro area, that is just whether it cash flows well or not, and you might get a very average cash on cash return, but there’s a lot of upside in there when you can buy on the dip because we’ve seen some sellers on dirt get a little bit more flexible, but a lot of these are the boomers that we’ve also talked about that are really, they were banking on selling their property for this much and they’re getting very stubborn too.
They’re not wheeling and dealing that property because it’s what they have. But the debt cost is real. If you look at in 2021, the average time to build was six and a half to seven months and they would sell in 45 to 60 days. So that life cycle of a build was about eight to nine months in 2021. Right now in 2026, we’re averaging around nine and a half to 10 months, which that may not seem like a huge jump, but when you’re two months more of extra interest on expensive construction loan, and then the article talks about how they’re selling them for at least 5% off of what they thought, and you have multiple projects on one site, like if it’s town homes or a shore plat, 5% across 10 to 20 homes is a big number. And when you add in the debt cost and construction cost, you are just getting hammered on all sides.
And I feel like this is the first time I’ve really felt like when interest rates shot up, I’ve kind of felt it a little bit, but this is a different … I feel like builders, they just feel beat up and these are sharp people. These are people that know what they’re doing. I’ve dealt with them for years and it is definitely, you can feel the shift in the tone.

Dave:
Do you think this endures, James? Do you think it’s going to stay like this for a while? Because that would have pretty big implications for inventory levels for the next couple of years. And going back to what we were talking about before, just with the baby boomers, right? If there’s just less total construction, that could offset at least some of the demographic shifts that we’re seeing.

James:
I think this could cause a major issue for housing supply. There’s a lot of markets with a lot of starts already going right now, but we are seeing … I know in Seattle, town home permits have been next to nothing getting issued in the city because builders just stopped wanting it. It took too long, it was too hairy, it cost for too much, and the sellers wanted all the money in the world for their land. And there was kind of this stall out and they’re still not moving. And so there could be a shortage of housing in a couple markets, and those are things that you want to look at. Are you in that metro area where it just got too expensive and there could be a shortage of housing supply? And so you can get permit data from your cities, like how many starts are happening, what’s submitted in?
And if you see that gap, there’s a good opportunity for you there. But I think it could cause a major … A lot of the guys I know doing deals the last 12 months, 14, they’re also just trying to keep their crews working. And they’re like, “Hey, we’re going to keep our guys working. We’ll get through this cycle.” And now they’re like, “You know what? I’m going to lay off some people because this is just not working.” And so there is opportunity, but it’s something that could cause a major kink in our system. They got to fix it somehow.

Dave:
All right. Well, another thing we’re going to have to keep an eye on is construction now because this is why we have a job because it’s constantly trying to figure out what’s happening with demand, what’s happening with supply. I think having this conversation should help everyone see that you can’t just focus on the demand issue. I feel like this is one of the main things I try and teach real estate investors all the time is they’re like, “Where are the jobs? Where are the people moving?” Important, but supply is super important. Look at Austin, right? People are moving there. They built a lot too, so it offsets the demand growth. So hopefully you could see just by the articles we didn’t even coordinate, but chose to bring, we have to look at both supply and demand, which is something we’ll be updating you on regularly here.
We do have one more headline for you that Kathy’s brought us, but we got to take one more quick break. We’ll be right back. Welcome back to On The Market. James, Kathy and I are here sharing what we’re paying attention to in the market. Kathy, what’d you bring us?

Kathy:
Well, I thought this was a very interesting article from the Wall Street Journal. It’s called America’s Self-Storage Craze has reached a tipping point. Oh boy, and it was a craze. Wow. Over the last five years, I invested in a friend of mine’s storage fund, so we’ll see how that goes. It’s new construction, and that’s really what this article’s about. The article says that since 2019, bans on self-storage facilities have been enacted in parts of at least 15 states
From Maine to California, according to the industry website, Modern Storage Media. Denver, Colorado prohibits self-storage facilities near light rail stations where officials are hoping for new housing. While Providence, Rhode Island instituted a citywide moratorium in 2023. And that is just fascinating. I had not heard … I mean, Airbnb, we hear about it all the time, banning short-term rentals. I had never really heard about something like this where they’re outright banning it or very much discouraging it. And as I read the article to try to figure out why this is happening, it goes on to say that more than 12% of US households are now renting storage units,

James:
Which is

Kathy:
The highest level ever recorded. So more and more storage units are being constructed, but cities don’t really like it because they’re not that pretty, right? They don’t bring in jobs. Most of them are now just self-serve, so that doesn’t really bring in revenue for the city either, and they need housing. So they would much rather see something else there. So some cities are saying, sure, you could build storage, but it’s got to be out in an industrial park, not anywhere near town. And another reason is they feel that they want higher end and perhaps too much storage units around is attracting a different kind of demographic than that particular city might want. So it’s interesting. Developers are still adding supply. About 164 million square feet of new storage space is currently in development. Wow. And some of these developers are trying … Yeah, I know they’re trying to get it through by making it not look like storage.
They’re having designs that look like apartments or pretty little housing units, but it’s really storage. So if that helps it get through, so be it. I have to say, Rich and I just got our first storage unit. I swore I would never, ever, ever get a storage unit because I just think it’s a total waste of money. Just get rid of your stuff. By the time that you have paid all this money to store your stuff, you could buy brand new stuff. That’s why- I know. They’re not

Dave:
Cheap.

Kathy:
They’re not cheap. No. Anyway, I found that interesting. What have you guys heard about storage or seen?

Dave:
I will say, it sounds like an outright ban, that might be a little extreme in my opinion, but the rest of it just kind of sounds like zoning, right? They’re just

Kathy:
Doing what

Dave:
Cities do, which is restrict what kinds of buildings can go into what kinds of areas. And that is often in service of trying to maximize economic output, especially for industrial or commercial areas. And so I get that. I think a lot of zoning is kind of silly sometimes and it’s often misguided. But I’ll be honest, I used to live in Denver and we had all sorts in this It’s prime area. You’d be walking around a super cool neighborhood and then there’s just this bright orange storage facility. I know. That is really ugly. They’re so ugly and they’re always lit up at night. I kind of get it. I will say, I don’t think most, maybe you know better than me, but from what I hear, most storage facilities aren’t doing great right now. It’s not been a good time for them. So maybe a moratorium I’m building will help the existing operators because it will limit the new supply because it seems oversupplied, at least in what I’m seeing nationally.
I don’t really know any of the regional variances here.

Kathy:
I’m sure it varies by region, but I know several operators who did great in the heyday in 2020 to 2022. People were moving a lot so that you need storage or just they were just traveling so they just put all their stuff in storage.That’s the typical supply demand cycle we were just talking about. And people, myself included, get caught up in it, even though I know better. I know when there’s a frenzy over one asset class, boy, you’re at the peak.

Dave:
Never buy it.

Kathy:
And I did, we invested not much, but in a friend syndication. I remember I was telling Rich, I feel like we’re at the peak. And he’s like, yeah, but I was like, I want to invest with this person. So we might’ve lost that money. But no, I know several who are really struggling. They’re struggling right now. But it depends on the market. There’s some markets that are undersupplied, some that are clearly oversupplied.

Dave:
I think the big thing here is like, it’s the same thing with Airbnb, like you said, Kathy. These niche kind of applications of real estate have risk. There’s just a risk that municipalities are going to change the way that they tax. Even if they allow them, sometimes they’ll add taxes to them. They’ll add restrictions to them. Sometimes they help you, sometimes they hurt you, but it’s just a lot more variable than buying a rental property. It’s very unlikely that anyone’s going to outlaw renting out a home.That’s just a needed service in our country. So I think in these kind of riskier things, huge returns can be earned, don’t get me wrong, but it does sort of add this complexity to your underwriting and evaluation because you just don’t know what’s going to happen. And the demand, at least in my opinion, is a lot less predictable as well.

James:
And I feel like the era of everyone just … There was so much disposable income going around where people are buying all sorts of stuff. They needed storage for it. There was a lot more … Things weren’t so expensive. And so that’s what people are pulling back. I hate storage units. I had one one time. We had it for a year and I didn’t even realize we had it. It was just there. It was through our company stuff and it was the biggest waste of money. It’s just like-

Kathy:
Such away.

James:
Throw this stuff away.

Kathy:
Yeah.

Dave:
Yeah. All right. Well, this is really interesting, Kathy. Thanks for bringing this. I think this kind of regulation is something we’re probably going to see more with different kinds of industrial. I actually saw yesterday Maine, the state of Maine, I think they put a moratorium on new data center construction. So I think we’re starting to see just pushback on these things. Data centers have big implications for local energy prices, for local water, and they don’t bring a lot of jobs. So I think people are getting mad about it. And so these are the kind of things, again, industrial’s been booming in recent years, make a lot of money, but it is something you need to really pay close attention to the regulatory environment as well. All right. Well, Kathy, James, thanks so much for being here as always.

Kathy:
Thank you for having us. I’m going to go back out on the slopes.

Dave:
Yeah, go have some fun.

James:
I’m jealous. Enjoy that powder.

Dave:
Well,

James:
You

Dave:
Enjoy the sun as well, James. And thank you all so much for being here and watching this episode of On The Market. I’m Dave Meyer. That’s James Dainard and Kathy Fettke. We’ll see you all next time.