Ashley:
Welcome to Real Estate Rookie. My name is Ashley Kehr.

Tony:
And I’m Tony J. Robinson.

Ashley:
And today we are live at the BiggerPockets Conference in Orlando, Florida. So we walk the hallways and we found a special guest today to kind of help Tony with the struggle he’s going through with one of his properties and then to share insights on some of the challenges he is seeing in his market and with his properties. So give a big welcome to James Dainard.

James:
Always fun hanging out with you guys. My favorite people to hang out with.

Tony:
We’ve interviewed you a few times already, James, but for folks who don’t know, just give us the quick 60 second who is James Daynard What do you do? What does your real estate portfolio look like?

James:
So I’m an active investor out of Seattle. We’re very, very value add, heavy construction guys. So we do a lot of flips, new constructions, apartment renovations, and we do hard money financing locally in Washington State. So our whole business, for the last 20 years, all I know is working with investors and buying rundown houses and fixing them.

Tony:
I want to talk about my deal and get your insight on it. But just generally, do you feel like is this the hardest time ever to be a flipper?

James:
No, no, no, no. No, it’s not a good time, but I mean 2008 was a nine was rough. We’re really just going back into how it was flipping homes 2012 to 15 where the market’s just really flat and the profit’s going to be made on how disciplined you are on your underwriting and controlling costs. So appreciation days are over.

Tony:
So talk about that piece a little bit though.You say disciplined on the acquisition side and the costs. What are you maybe doing differently today than, I don’t know, in 22 when things are just going crazy?

James:
There’s way more risk in the market. And so anytime you’re buying any kind of short-term investment, when we’re looking at a deal, we want to make a certain return on that deal or how much profit can we make? And so for the last four years with COVID, we were trying to make a 35% return, which is if we put a hundred grand into a house, we’re trying to make 35 grand. So when the market gets flatter or there’s less transactions going on and it’s slower, it’s declining, we want to widen that margin. So today now I need to make 45% on the deal.

Tony:
Interesting. So you’re asking for more on the deal, not accepting less.

James:
Oh, we won’t accept less because that’s how you get through any kind of… The extra margin helps protect you from longer hold times or price cuts or buyer closing costs. And so when you’re in a riskier market, you just want to get a better deal.

Ashley:
Interesting. So you’re being more selective on the deals that you take because it’s harder to find deals with that margin then?

James:
Well, the market gets bad on selling side, the buying side gets better. And so just we’re listing flips right now and people offer us 10% off list and at 1.5 million, that’s 150 grand and they do it without batting an eye. And honestly, I’m always like, yeah, good for you. Good for asking. It’s a no, but good for you asking. And so you got to ask the same question. And I will say that for the first time in a long time, sellers have changed their tune where they want to sell rather than, will you overpay me? And that’s a very different type of transaction. And so I will say that getting those margins right now has not been hard. It’s getting rid of the inventory you have that is the tough part right now.

Tony:
We interviewed Henry Washington and Dominique Gunderson, both investors that you know, to talk about like, “Hey, how’s the market shifting?” And both of those investors said that they’ve, because of that need to find better deals, they’ve slowed down pretty tremendously the number of transactions they’re doing on an annual basis. Are you seeing the same thing? Have you slowed down a number of transactions or is the machine still pumping the same way it was before?

James:
We always are grinding deals up, but there’s also this strategy behind that because when you’re in a market that’s appreciating having more homes, you get the benefit of that. Everything’s lifting. And so if you have 10 homes going or 20 homes going and all of a sudden you get a 5% bump, that really makes a difference. But at the same time, you become inefficient. The more projects you have, just like anything, whether it’s you have too many short-term rentals or too many rental properties and you can’t keep up with it, what happens? Your costs go up, your profit goes down. And so this is the kind of market where you want to focus on what you’re really good at and don’t break away from that and just if you do less, you’ll actually make more by just being efficient. You’re not going to have the cost overruns.

Ashley:
Now your market is Seattle that you primarily flip in, but are you seeing this across the country that this is happening in most markets where it’s becoming flat?

James:
Yeah, Seattle’s doing more than flat right now. I think we might be ranked, I think we just got the award for worst market in the nation that I saw, which I’m going to wear it proud because it’s been a wild ride. But from talking to other flippers and investors in the data I’m reading, it’s not every market. I mean some things are still transacting. The Northeast is still transacting up there. Where we’re seeing it is the more expensive markets. I’m in Scottsdale, Arizona too. And I will say the stuff in the middle that’s priced in that one and a half, two and a half, three and a half, it is not moving. But then the affordable stuff is and the expensive is. And so it depends on what pocket you’re in and the price point. Newport Beach, I got a really expensive flip going there.
I have two buyers on it already. And so I would say honestly the safest right now is the Uber luxury because people have capital and they’re not so interest rate dependent.

Tony:
What about for the rookie investor who can’t fathom doing a super luxury flip? What should they be focusing on? And obviously speak to the markets that you know, the Northwest, the Arizonas, the Southern Californias. If someone wanted to get started in that kind of market, should they just be then targeting the really, really affordable starter home? What would your advice be to that person?

James:
Well, you want homes with multiple exits. That’s the biggest thing because where flippers are getting jammed right now is if you are selling in that million dollar price range, you can’t keep that house as a rental because you’re going to be losing two, three grand a month on the coverage. The rent to purchase, it’s such a huge delta. But when you’re flipping homes that are below 400 on the resale, it makes it to where you can refinance them and take a small monthly loss and still protect your equity because markets are going to go up, they’re going to go down, they’re going to go back up. And so if you don’t have to sell the property, it’s not as detrimental. And so I’ve been encouraging everyone, including me, which that’s the nice thing about the market getting shaken up, we can buy cheaper stuff now, whereas I couldn’t compete with some of these younger flippers.
They were just paying a lot more than I would pay. And so try to find stuff where you can refinance with a DSER loan and you can cover most of your costs. That’s your lowest flip because it gives you the best upside too. If you can make maybe a 30% return on a house, but the negative is you have a burr property and break even, that’s kind of a win both ways. And so try to focus on the slower markets and then put your brokers to work. The thing that we track is absorption rates and zip codes.

Tony:
What do you mean by that? Define absorption rates.

James:
So where are the buyer pool at? So just because a market’s bad doesn’t mean transactions aren’t going down. They’re just not going down in certain price points. And so if I look at a zip code, I might see like in Bellevue, Washington right now, one of the best cities you can live in is getting hammered the most right now. If you’re selling, it’s right by all the tech companies, a lot of dual income, we’ve had a lot of layoffs. If you’re selling at 1.5 to 1.8, it is no man’s land. There is maybe one deal for every 10 homes, there’s only one going pending, so it’s a very low buyer pool. But if you look at one one to one three, it’s a much different story. Seven out of 10 are pending. And so you want to shift down to where is the action? Where’s the most amount of pendings in that price point?
Because that’s where the velocity is. We still have a shortage of homes in the US, so they’re still buyers, they just can’t afford certain things. And so go for where the pendings are in the affordability.

Tony:
But those things shift with time, right James? It’s like for what you said, 1.1 to 1.3. So it’s like, okay, today I’m going to go out and buy something that I think will resell for 1.1. What happens if the market kind of continues to shift as I’m holding that property? Are you seeing that happen where you have this idea of, hey, here’s what the box looks like right now. By the time we finish, it’s shifted on us again. Are you seeing that happen?

James:
Well, yeah. And that’s why underwriting is so important. When you’re looking at an investment, especially for a flip, it’s a high risk investment. There’s a high upside there. You can only underwrite it to the best of your ability today. And so you want to be very conservative. So we don’t go to the high end of the comps. We use only the cluster comps. So if there’s one that’s selling at 1.3, but everything else is around 1.2, we’re going to go to the low. The other thing that we really want to do in that kind of risky market is again, widen the margins and you got to add in these contingencies. So instead of a 35% return, I’m going for 45%. If I think it’s going to take me six months, I put in eight months on my hold. And then if I think it’s going to cost me a hundred grand to fix it, we add a 10% contingency.
So it’s 110. So you can pad your pro forma to even if your numbers are off, you’re a better margin, you’re in the area that’s selling, and you have the room to where every day I’m looking at, if my worst case scenario is breaking even, I’m in. And I’d rather buy that than some deal with some massive upside because that’s where the risk is.

Ashley:
Now you said that there’s a lot of opportunity to buy properties. Are you buying any properties as buy-in holds and turning them into rentals or anything like that?

James:
Oh yeah. We just bought an 88 unit building in Seattle. I’m actually keeping two of my flips, the ones I could keep, because they have great upside. And the reason they have good upside is they have good backyards where I can put dadus in them later. And so I’m not –

Ashley:
Can you explain what a dadu is?

James:
Yeah. Dadu is a detached accessory dwelling unit. So the property has some development upside where right now land’s not worth a whole lot because people don’t want to build, but those backyard lots or land was worth a lot the last couple years. And so when I’m looking at keeping a rental, whether it’s like, do I cut bait and sell it as a flip or do I keep it, it’s not a million dollar house. The loan amounts are probably like 550 on them. I’m not going to cover with my rent, but I’m going to be close, but I can develop the backyard later when the market gets better. And so there’s some upside where you can get a bump. And so because the market is so slow right now, that’s what I am targeting is single family houses with larger lots because your competition from builders in Seattle, it has gone away.
And so because no one’s bidding on them, it gives you the best opportunity to pick those up. And so those are great things to buy right now.

Ashley:
Now Tony, do you want to go over your problem right now with your flip? And if you’re a rookie listener, you probably have heard us talk about this several times and hopefully James has some good guidance here for Tony.

Tony:
Before we jump in, I just want to ask one more follow up on the dadu. Ash and I were actually talking about this on a previous podcast. If you do the detached ADU, are you separating that into two different parcels when you’re done or are you refinancing it as just one parcel with both properties on it still?

James:
When you structure the debt, what we do is we condoize them off because then you can actually get single family loans on them rather than… Well, that doesn’t really help right now because DSER’s loans are the best for rates, but typically we’re going to condo them off and I like to do that because then let’s say the market does start rebounding, I can sell one piece of that property and take my bases down. And so you don’t have to do it that way, but we kind of do it because it’s simple to do. If I had to go through a formal subdivision and it was going to take six months to cover, I probably wouldn’t do it. I’d keep it as one lot, but we can do a condo overlay in Washington and it takes 30 days. Interesting. And so we’re able to condo those off and sell them separate.

Tony:
But does that impact, and this is a question that we have, does that impact the value of the original primary home if you’re condoizing both one and two?

James:
You want to buy the right lots, and this is where a lot of people, flippers are in deep trouble on because just because you have it doesn’t mean you should build it. And so the ones that we target for those is I’m looking for ones on corners and ones with street to street access, meaning there’s alley or street in the back because we can fence that whole property in and they feel like two separate units on smaller lots. And you do want to make sure that you account for how much backyard space, how much parking you have on your front, because all those things will affect the value. And so where people got in trouble is they maybe took 5% off their value and it’s really like a 15% hit. If someone doesn’t have a big yard and can’t park, it’s going to be a big deal.
And so you just want to be picky about the ones you do. The two that I’m looking at as rentals, one’s got street to street and then one has a driveway that goes all the way up. So they’re completely separate. They have their own yards. I’m like, “Okay, this is a good thing to hold.” And I don’t have to take a loss because I mean if I sold those two houses today, I’d probably lose a hundred grand, 50 grand house.

Ashley:
Now with that, since you’re not parceling it off and you’re turning them into condos, do you have to have an HOA in place?

James:
They do. It’s a very simple HOA. So the attorneys will set up a very simple HOA. It’s more for paperwork. And that could go away in Washington in general because they took away single family zoning. So now you can just build and subdivide. But depending on how long that will take, which we’re finding out, we might still condo them off, but very simple HOA.

Ashley:
Okay. So now Tony has this flip that he’s doing that hopefully you can give some advice for. And if you’re a rookie listener and listen to all of our episodes, you’ve probably heard us talk about this flip that’s been sitting for how long now?

Tony:
Almost two years since we closed on it originally. It’s a clinger.

James:
Yeah. You can’t get rid of it.

Tony:
Can’t get away. Can’t get away from it.

James:
It won’t go away.

Tony:
So if anyone wants to buy a really nice cabin in Southern California, I got one.

James:
Yeah.

Ashley:
Why don’t you just do a quick recap of the property?

Tony:
Yeah. So we bought this place, again, it was two years ago, finished the renovation pretty quickly. It was like 90 days we were in and we were out. And when I initially underwrote it, the mark was already starting to shift, but there were comps in the area for 470, 460, somewhere in that ballpark. I think I underwrote like 430. So we gave ourselves a little bit of cushion going into it. We listed it, no offers. And I think we didn’t even start getting offers until I dropped it to below 400. During the renovation, rates just shot up a lot as well, so I think that hurt us. We’ve been under contract twice, so we literally just fill out a contract last week. The first time there was an issue with the roof. We repaired the roof, didn’t do a full, we didn’t pull the whole roof off.
After that first inspection failed, we went back and replaced the whole roof. On the second inspection, they flagged some other issues with the decking. They’re like, “Hey, some of these posts need, they look like they’re rotted, things like that. We replaced the upper portion of the deck and all the support posts underneath.” So I’m asking myself this question of, “Hey, what’s the right exit strategy here?” We’re listed right now at 340, I think is what we’re listed at right now. At that number, we’re already losing, I don’t know, a hundred grand probably or maybe 70 grand, somewhere in that ballpark. It is. So the lower I go, the more it’s going to hurt. I can’t keep it as a short-term rental because there’s some ordinance issues where there’s another short-term rental that’s too close and they don’t give permits to neighboring properties, so I can’t short-term rent it.
Long-term rents just aren’t enough, I think, in that market to make sense in that specific property.

James:
What will it rent for long-term?

Tony:
Gosh, I don’t know. 1500? Somewhere in that. Two grand maybe if I’m pushing it. But in order for us to refinance, we’re probably looking at close to three grand on the mortgage probably.

Ashley:
And if you refinance, do you think it would appraise enough to pay back your private money lenders?

Tony:
No, no, no. So we still have to come out of pocket even if we refinanced. So it’s like either way, I’m writing a big check. It’s either writing a big check and I’m keeping it as a rental to keep losing money every month or writing maybe a lightly bigger check just to be done with

James:
It.

Tony:
So the things that I’ve thought about recently are maybe trying to refinance into more construction debt and making the house bigger. Right now it’s a two-two. So it’s like, man, maybe if I turn it into a three-two, would that help me maybe move the inventory faster? I thought about listing it for a dollar. Ash and I were talking about this when we interviewed someone else. She’s like, list it for a dollar, see if there’s any… Maybe I can get a news story that goes off about it and we get the right person.

Ashley:
And there’s a guy in Buffalo that did it, listed it for a dollar and he got a ton of offers on it.

Tony:
So yeah, I’m just at a crossroads, man. So what would you do if you were in my situation?

James:
Okay. So right now, what do you owe on the property?

Tony:
That’s a good question. Let me pull that up. I have it here.

James:
Because that’s what the hard part is, is do you take the loss or not? And I can tell you, I got a two-year cleaner too that I just signed it off wrong, and it’s going to hurt on the way out the door. But also there’s no way I can make this encapsul as a rental. I owed 1.1 million on it, so it’s just not going to work. But luckily you bought a cheap house.

Tony:
It was a very cheap house. That’s why we bought it because I don’t have service in here. Unfortunately, the wifi at this place sucks, so I can’t say the exact number, but I have three private money lenders on it. And my first position guy, he’s going to be fine no matter what we sell at. My second position guy is borderline. If I sell any less than what I’m at, then we start eating into what he’s got. My guy in first position, he’s going to come up short for sure. I’ve already talked to him and he’s investing from a retirement account, so he’s fine if we just roll that debt into a different note, repay him over time. I think my second guy might be willing to do that too because he’s also investing with the retirement account. But I want to say between all those guys, it’s close to 400K so we have to pay them to get everyone paid off.

James:
Okay. And you’re listed right now 330?

Tony:
340.

James:
340. Yeah. So it’s a clip of 100 off the debt, not including the debt service. I mean, what I definitely would do is at least talk to a DSCR lender and go, “Okay, what’s the max loan balance I can get out of this?” Because I do look at return. If I got to write a check for a hundred grand and I can lose a thousand bucks a month even for 12 months, it’s like, well, that takes eight years for me to… I mean, that’s eight years of loss to recoup some of that money back or you can run the break even. And let’s say you get half the money back, 50. Well, that’s four years. What I would do is go back historically and go, “Okay, what is going on with this fluctuation?” The reason that’s sitting is because rates are so high, secondary loans are just not what people want.
But that will change. And for me, if I was looking at that big of a clip on that size of house, I would probably keep it, get the max balance, and then restructure the debt with, “Hey, good news is, lender, you’re not losing your money, but we need you to ride this loan out longer and just carry it over and rent it.” I mean, because that’s a big clip on that small of a house.

Tony:
100%.

James:
And that’s the hard part about the secondary markets. I don’t want to… Right now I’m not flipping anything in secondary markets because the buyer pool is so low.

Tony:
So small. So small.

James:
And it’s temporary. But I would get the max DSCR one and go, “Okay, what can I get this rented for?” Get that loan on it, restructure the second and the third, because I bet you that property’s worth more in two years because you’re on the low, low side right now. I feel like secondary homes are at the lowest, especially in that price point. We could see more slide on that expensive mountain stuff, but I don’t think it gets worse from here on that one because you’re not that expensive. Is there anything else you can do with the land? Is it big?

Tony:
Not big enough to add any additional units or anything like that. The house already sits as the very far back of the property line and basically just driveways, so there’s not a whole lot of excess land right now.

James:
Do you get any inquiries?That’s what I always want to know is how many showings am I getting and then is there any pendings in the area?

Ashley:
Well, you’ve had a couple offers,

Tony:
Right?

Ashley:
Yeah.

Tony:
We’ve been under contract twice, like I said, and the first time it was a roof and then this last one it was the deck and some other minor things. And it’s been weird because both times I’m like, “Hey, we’ll fix the thing.”

James:
They just changed their mind.

Tony:
They just changed their mind. And we literally still fixed the roof for the last guys and shopped it back to them and they’re like,

James:
No,

Tony:
We’re fine.

James:
That just happened on me and Dave’s slip.

Ashley:
Oh,

James:
Really? I thought it looked real good for a second. Put this house up for sale, full price, got it mutual first weekend, terrible market. I’m stoked. Buyers call us and they’re like, “Hey.” A lot of things came up. I’m like, “What are you talking about? We did permits? We did a pre-inspection. We did a re-inspection. What came up?” And it was an inspector called like, well, the foundation. No, no no, that’s already been addressed. We’ve had a foundation company come out. And I just texted the guy back because they ended up walking, but they loved the house and it was over $4,000 worth work.

Tony:
Right. It’s like, “I’ll just fix it for you.”

James:
And it’s not even required work. The foundation company’s like, “This is not required, but this is preventative.” And at the end of the day, they just changed their mind.

Ashley:
Wow.

James:
What a bummer.

Ashley:
I had that happen on a duplex. We actually got through… They were doing a conventional loan, non-primary, and during their appraisal, the bank actually did an inspection also and wanted these minor things fixed. So we did them. They were just inconveniences, but the bank would not lend unless we did this, which was so weird that it was treated like an inspection. Myself, my attorney, the buyer, none of us had heard of this happening before. So we did all of the repairs. It delayed closing to get these things done. On closing day, the lender forgot to add school taxes into the property taxes for escrow. So the escrow amount was wrong. So the lender needed a couple more days to actually figure out what exactly their closing disclosure would be. A couple days later, we’re set to close again. Buyer gets cold feet. No one can contact him.
His agent can’t reach him, nothing. About a week and a half later, he’s like, “Oh, I need to think about it.” His payment went up by a hundred bucks a month. I offered to give him a seller’s credit of $2,400 to cover two years, and I’d send notices to each of the tenants that I was going to increase their rent by $50 each at their renewal. And still they just ended up walking.

Tony:
It’s like buyers right now are just so nervous about the future and is this the right move? I’ve sold a lot of properties and things always pop up in the inspection report, but then we’re just like, fix it. Everyone’s happy, but these last two, it’s like they’re just throwing their hands up and running away.

Ashley:
Are we too naive?

Tony:
Something’s going on.

James:
No, you have to be… I literally, I got a clinger too that we’re selling. It’s going to be a nasty one. We’re losing 200 grand. And everything went wrong, but the good thing is now it’s sold. We’re one of the only houses sold in the neighborhood. But my whole team’s going there with all the reports again to walk the property to make sure everything’s done because you cannot lose that buyer and you got to white glove service everything. It’s like…

Tony:
Talk me through that. So what does that look like? So your team’s going there, what exactly is their list of actions while they’re at the property?

James:
So they bring the pre-inspection and the re-inspection and they go through picture by picture, is this done and is it done of standard? And so they go snap photos for me and go, this is complete, this is complete, this is complete. And then at the same time, we’re going through again, and we have three different eyes going. I have my PM and I have my broker and I have our assistant and they’re all going to do their own punch list separately.

Ashley:
So this is after you’ve gotten the offer, but before the buyers have done their own inspection that you’re doing

James:
This? Yes. Okay. And we’ve already done this on the house, but this is like, okay, so what we’ve just imposed now is this happens again and we’re doing it before we’re going mutual, hopefully in the next 30 minutes, but I don’t want to lose that buyer because that’s just detrimental right now.

Ashley:
I’ve never heard it called going mutual. Do you guys count that too? No. Like you go under contract. Is that what you’re saying? You go mutual?

James:
But mutual, it’s more of a… See, that’s why you’re going to buy this

Ashley:
Kick.

James:
It sounds like – I’m building friends and making it mutually beneficial.

Ashley:
We’re going steady.

James:
Yes. That’s what it is. You’re dating them to the close. Tony, one idea, it kicked in my brain as we’re talking. Why can’t your second and third lender, have you ever though about looking at it this way to make the cash flow better on this property or less of a negative? You’re doing the right thing. You’re paying your lender back no matter what. A lot of people can’t say that, which is I think the right thing to do. But why can’t you go to them and go, “Hey, look, we’re in a tough situation. We’re going to restructure this.” What’s their current rate on this?

Tony:
10%. 10%. Simple too. So it’s just like, “Hey, they gave me a hundred grand, they get 10 grand back for the year.”

James:
Okay. So 10 flat for 12 months. Yep. Why can’t they… What I would do is also present it to them like, “Hey, we’re doing this together. We’re working on this.” I mean, it is a risky position when you take a second and third, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t pay them back. But you could also bring up to them, “How about we give you 5% and we give you 20% of the upside in the deal when the market rebounds in 20, 30 years?” 20,

Ashley:
30 years.

James:
20, 30 years. It’ll be a long one.

Ashley:
No.

James:
In two to three years, and then they get that gain, puts in their 401k so it’s tax-free, but they have to believe in the market, but the market’s not going to go free, fall forever. And so it’s another way to reduce your monthly and annual cost. They still get a pref return.

Ashley:
And it’s in their retirement account, so you probably have a better chance of that happening. It’s not like it’s their life savings they gave you.

Tony:
I haven’t though about that. That’s a good option.

James:
It just might be a better way to get the bleed down throughout the year. And then you’re also creating a solution for a lender. They’re going, “Hey, I’m fixing the problem, but you could participate. This will help everyone do better.” You could even give them 50% of the equity.

Tony:
I’ll give them all of it. Whatever’s there,

James:
You guys-You don’t want to do that if you’re covering the negative, right? I mean, yes, if they want the property, they can take it. And as a lender, I’d be like, “No, I want you in the deal because we all got to win.” But you could give them 25% each and then reduce that 10 grand a year down.

Tony:
I never thought about doing that, reducing it, but giving them more on the back end. I got some options here, James. I appreciate the context. I just want to be done with this one, man. I want to be done with it. But I like the pre-inspection too, because I think that’s been part of what’s bit us in the butt, is that we just haven’t gotten our own eyes out there enough either, I think. We probably need to go back out there and do an inspection ourselves and say, “Hey, what’s actually missing here?”

James:
Everyone should be pre-inspecting their properties. I know some investors, they go, “Well, I don’t want to know.” Because they don’t. They don’t want to have to list it down, but this ain’t the market for that. It’s, “I want to know and I’m going to fix the issue. And if it costs you more money, it costs you more money, but it’s going to cost you way more if your buyer kicks. That one monthly payment will cost for that repair sometimes two times over.

Ashley:
Well, James, thank you so much for joining us today at BP Con. I’m sure you’ve been very busy through the hallways. You always see James chatting it up with other attendees. It’s hard to even get to talk to you.

James:
No, it’s tough for you. Everyone who’s flipping is a little tough. I can’t even afford sleeves right now. I’m eating the free snacks. I got no sleeves.

Ashley:
That’s how we got them into this room, is the free water and –

Tony:
Free water and snacks.

James:
I was panhandling outside the building. Help a flipper out here. But no, anytime there’s market transitions, it’s tough and you got to work through it. But this isn’t the first time. When Ray shot up, it was the same thing. And what we do know is it will end, and you just got to try to do the right financial thing on the way out.

Ashley:
Now, where can people reach out to you and find you?

James:
On the market podcast, BiggerPockets. No.

Ashley:
Second best podcast.

James:
Yeah. Or if you want to see all my fail stories going on right now, then go to JDMFlips on Instagram and I will give you all the tips of what I’m trying to do to not lose money in this market.

Tony:
You’re also on TV. If people want to watch you on the cable networks, where should they be going?

James:
A&E, million dollar zombie flips. We took down a lot of zombies and million dollar ones that are hurting right now though.

Ashley:
Well, thank you guys so much watching to this episode of Real Estate Rookie. If you weren’t at BP Con this year, make sure you attend next year. We are going to Denver, Colorado. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. I’m Ashley. He’s Tony, and we’ll see you on the next episode.