How Business Storytelling Builds Trust and Drives Results

John Jantsch (00:01.038)

So some people walk into a room with more credentials, more data, more experience maybe, than anyone else there and still get ignored. Somebody else with less of all three changes minds instead. And the difference always comes down to who knew how to tell a better story. Hello and welcome to the Ductape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch, and my guest today is Don Yeager, a repeat guest, National Speaker’s Hall of Fame inductee, 13 time New York Times.

Best selling author and longtime associate editor at Sports Illustrated. And I can go on and on about all books about some of our famous sports sport sports stars. But well for for the purpose of this show, we’re gonna talk about his latest book, The Business of Storytelling, Inspire Action, Build Trust, and Drive Results Through Stories. So welcome back, Don.

Don Yaeger (00:38.984)

Just makes me sound old. Yeah.

Don Yaeger (00:53.778)

Hey, thanks, John. I always appreciate the opportunity to spend a little time with you.

John Jantsch (00:56.782)

Well, so let’s dive right into the book. you have some universal truths in this book. it’s kind of four f based al around that or structured around that. and this is the one that I this is the one I wanted to test. It says no formula governs a great story, but then you give us like 10 elements to build a great story. So how do you square those two things?

Don Yaeger (01:22.814)

But but the ten elements are not a formula. The formula is plus dot you know, you know, insert hero here, insert challenge there, and out comes transformation. these are elements that amount that allow a great story to come together. And I just I just know these elements to be true and they and you cannot really tell a great story without without covering that waterfront.

John Jantsch (01:30.37)

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right, right. Yeah.

John Jantsch (01:49.805)

Now you, occupational hazard, let’s call it that, you know, have interviewed thousands of people. you’ve heard thousands of stories, and some of your the people that you’ve chronicled books are amazing storytellers. so how do you translate that to the person that maybe, you know, certainly doesn’t have that background, but but maybe, you know, doesn’t have a communications team, you know, is really just kind of trying to

Be more authentic in a world of AI. I mean, how do you translate that to them?

Don Yaeger (02:23.069)

Well, first off, thanks for saying those words because I think that’s a real driver in all of it, right? I mean, I think there are so many people that think I’m gonna seed that s I’m gonna I’m gonna ask AI to tell my story for me. and the one thing I will promise you is that the one is that AI cannot tell your story for you. in fact if you lean into it, y you may or may not have any control about what your story shows up to be when when you’re when you’re suddenly introduced. AI

John Jantsch (02:25.358)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (02:33.869)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (02:49.422)

Sure.

Don Yaeger (02:53.179)

as we know, likes to make things up. But on top of that, it also has it has weaknesses that that remain and will probably always remain. The one thing AI can’t do is is is bring heart to the to the equation, right? obviously it’s very, very not very insightful of me to say, but that a computer can’t bring heart to the equation. But that’s what a great story does, right? A great story takes statistics and numbers and everything else and it and it and it wraps them

John Jantsch (02:56.27)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (03:22.959)

in a heart and that ability to kind of humanize a good story belongs to us.

John Jantsch (03:32.633)

So you know, I think there are two ends of this because I have listeners that need to pull a story out of somebody. and certainly I have people that have a story they need to tell. particularly thinking about the person that needs to pull a story. when you start when you start interviewing somebody, you know

I’m I’m guessing there are some people that just get right to the heart of it. I’m sure there are also some people that put up a mask and it’s like here’s the story I w Okay Here’s the story I want you to hear. I mean, how do you actually get to the real story when when you or or do you just realize, hey, they’re not gonna tell me anything, I’m done.

Don Yaeger (03:58.942)

Most most put at the mask. Yeah. Right.

Don Yaeger (04:10.963)

So I don’t give up on it. one thing I one thing you know, if you do the right prep work, right? You’re listening to somebody, or you’re reading stories with someone’s interview involved. one thing that happens is you become really clear, like these are the stories they’re just used to telling, right? These are the ones that it’s like, you know, they they pull up pull a little cord and then you know, it just spews out. and at the end of the day, what I’m always trying to do is,

John Jantsch (04:12.323)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (04:27.66)

Yeah, right, right.

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (04:38.375)

be aware of those stories so that if they start going there, I can immediately kind of start to shift it in another direction. I do not want the story everybody else gets when they’re in conversation with John Jatch, right? I’m I’m looking for something that I can pull from you that that you may not have wanted to say when this conversation began. I have lots of experience doing that, but I think the real key is you have to know what you don’t want.

John Jantsch (04:57.975)

Mm.

Don Yaeger (05:06.619)

in order to really start beginning to drive people to where you hope to get. And so research is an enormous part of what I do when I’m trying to pull a good story from someone. I’ve

John Jantsch (05:20.492)

You you you are you gonna try to get me to cry, Don? Is that the is that the goal? So so let me push back just a moment because I mean you’re interviewing, you know, Deion Sanders, Walter Payton. there’s a lot out there about them. I mean, you can find all the stuff, but what about the CEO of a small, you know, private company? there’s not a lot maybe out there.

Don Yaeger (05:23.411)

I I i it will not be long, brother. I’m gonna have I’m gonna make that happen. So get ready. Get the tissues out. I will make it happen.

John Jantsch (05:49.154)

How do you do that research and prepare when there’s not much to know?

Don Yaeger (05:54.43)

So first off, I I would I would disagree with you that in today’s day and age, there is almost in today’s day and age, there are so many places you can go. I did I did an interview this morning or I I I was on with someone this morning in which I actually I shared with her, hey, you know, I saw in classmates, and you may not even know what classmates actually shows you the yearbooks of people you know, dating back a hundred years.

John Jantsch (05:56.866)

Okay. Well that’s true. You know what they ate for lunch, right? Yeah.

Right.

John Jantsch (06:17.452)

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Don Yaeger (06:24.407)

And I said, hey, I I was looking at Georgia Christian co Georgia Christian High School, where you graduated in 2005. I saw the the the yearbook and I noticed that you were not just a three-sport athlete, you were also a homecoming queen. And like she was blown away. It was an but it was a simple website. you know, that that’s not a difficult one to get to, not a difficult one to track. It wasn’t stalking. It’s a yearbook. The yearbooks are available in libraries.

John Jantsch (06:43.054)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (06:47.375)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (06:52.639)

so she just understood that I had taken time to learn something about her, that sh that that she wasn’t she wasn’t even aware other people might know. And and it gave me an opportunity to talk about being a three sport athlete myself. And, you know, I was not homecoming queen, but I, you know, and then between that, suddenly we go from I know something about her, I’ve now connected to her because we both have something in common, and then it allows me to go into different places.

John Jantsch (07:09.113)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (07:14.521)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (07:21.807)

in the interview process. So the idea of actually finding there are unique websites out there. Almost any one of these CEOs is on a charity board. There’s amazing things you’ll find about them in the charity board website that most people won’t go to look.

John Jantsch (07:31.533)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (07:36.333)

Yeah, they put per personal details down there sometimes, right? Yeah.

Don Yaeger (07:39.666)

Right. And about the things that they’ve done for the charity that might be really inspirational. And if I can know that, again, it’s very public knowledge. I’m not finding stuff that isn’t available to everyone else. I’m just doing it well enough that at the end of the day they they realize I’ve cared for them by check by learning about them.

John Jantsch (07:43.512)

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (08:00.633)

So let’s get back to the to the to the book, but but one one more stop. Let’s unpack a little bit in your mind why storytelling is so effective. you know, the neuroscience actually even you know, behind it, not just as a tool, but but really as a as a you know, I mean just part of our human nature.

Don Yaeger (08:21.191)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, think about it. It is the it is the the the one thing that’s been true over the history of mankind is that we relay knowledge through story. We relay history through story. We relay we build relationship through story. And I mean, you you go to the caves, you know, you you you walk into the crypts.

John Jantsch (08:32.857)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (08:45.805)

And you you see things that that will blow your mind because you’ll understand that this was the way history was recorded. It’s just as true today. the way that I want you to to to understand me is through story. The way I hope I can relate to you is through story. And some people might argue that they don’t need to know how to do this, that it’s just a nice to have. I argue that it’s a it’s a it’s an imperative. In today’s day and age,

Revenue changes hand money changes hands over storytelling.

John Jantsch (09:23.449)

Well and j and just just the human connection. I mean, you know, obviously storytelling in the boardroom, storytelling, you know, on a on a you know, reporting, you know, call of the numbers and whatnot are factor, but just even like making a connection in a sales call. You know, my my dad you know, was an old kind of bag carrying salesperson and he’d walk in the office, first thing he did is like

There’s Walter Payton’s jersey, you got three kids, you got, you know, there’s Muhammad Ali. It’s like I know how to connect with you now because I’ll f I find that common thing and you know, it’s corny as it and contrived, maybe as it can sound, you know, it just it speeds up the process of connection so much. Yeah.

Don Yaeger (10:04.665)

Absolutely. And what happens? So, you know, sometimes we love to say people like to buy from people, you know, like them. People like people like them, right? So how do you make sure that they know that you’re like them? You understand who they are, and then you try to draw that point of connection. So it’s not just again, this it’s it’s funny. I started several years ago as I was really I I had been working for years to become known as a good storyteller.

John Jantsch (10:16.588)

Yeah, right, right, right.

John Jantsch (10:20.973)

Mm-hmm.

Don Yaeger (10:34.013)

Great storyteller. I’ve been fortunate. The likes of Simon Sinek, the likes of John Maxwell, people that I value greatly refer to me in that way, and that’s awesome. But one of the things I started asking people is: would you be better as a salesperson if you could tell better stories? Would you be a better leader if you could tell better stories? would you be a better parent if you could tell better stories? And the truth is.

John Jantsch (10:54.223)

Mm-hmm.

Don Yaeger (11:01.277)

There almost is there’s not a question I could ask you where you would say no. There is this is a skill that if mastered makes you better across the board.

John Jantsch (11:04.879)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (11:16.419)

So let’s get to I we we kind of flirted with them a little bit, but maybe you could pack, unpack, you don’t have to do do them all, but just the book is based on these universal truths. So maybe kind of cover the range of those and maybe you can pick I always like to to to ask authors to pick their favorite.

Don Yaeger (11:37.568)

well, the universal truths, there are four of them, and there are 10 elements. But four the four universal truths, the first one’s extra. I mean, it’s just the first one we would have to agree on between each other because I know it, I know you know it to be true. That’s that the best stories are always human. I could tell you a story about our productivity. I could tell you a story about how many more widgets we are producing today than we’ve ever produced before. But if I tell you

John Jantsch (11:41.177)

Right.

Don Yaeger (12:05.447)

How those widgets are changing lives for one family or for for for a for a user of our product or or how producing more widgets is making more of our employees wealthy enough to be able to rise to pull themselves out of poverty. If I can use if I can build the story around people, it always remains more memorable.

John Jantsch (12:31.555)

Well, I you know, just just go look at a dozen Google reviews of say like a I don’t know, a furnace company or something. And I will tell you that none of the five star reviews will say this is the best company. They will say rusty fixed our boiler. And he was, you know, he closed the door and he was so kind to my children. I mean, that’s I mean that that that proves your point, doesn’t it? I mean, that’s what people connected with.

Don Yaeger (12:46.536)

Yes.

Don Yaeger (12:50.803)

Right.

Right. And and it it is. It’s the every s every great story is human, right? That’s so that’s that’s first and foremost. The second of the universal truths is that it is the story behind the story that is the story. You know, many people think, I can I’m gonna tell you my story about my life and and often it’s very linear, but it’s the things that made that happen that that absolutely that’s the real story. The story is what what is what’s

John Jantsch (12:57.295)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (13:06.031)

Mm-hmm.

Don Yaeger (13:23.217)

behind the curtain. And so you have to start asking you the questions of, you know, why, what, how, who was involved in the, in the, in, in the, and as you’re telling the story and you start bringing some of those questions to the fore, you start finding the deeper story, the deeper story about why what you’re doing matters and who it matters to. the third of the universal truths is that we argue all the time that that there’s money in storytelling.

John Jantsch (13:52.322)

This is

Don Yaeger (13:52.926)

That is not and and there’s and and we use a number of examples, but one that I love is a couple of journalists, a couple of researchers several years ago decided to take on a project and they took, they bought a hundred items off eBay, right? Hundred chotkis, little things worth nothing. never paid more than never paid more than three dollars for a single item. then they distributed those hundred items to guys like you and me, right? Storytellers.

And so but they they they picked some really great ones. And and in the distribution, they asked each person to take their tchotchke and create a story about its significance to them as the seller. And then they put them back on the on on eBay, and while they spent $193.50 to start, they put them back on eBay, and the second go round, they they earned $8,000.

John Jantsch (14:52.354)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (14:52.935)

Hundred ninety three turned into eight thousand dollars in four days because stories suddenly made this no longer was it a you know, a car key. It was the key to the most amazing vehicle I’ve ever owned in my life. And I had to sell the vehicle. I kept the key because it meant something to me. Now it’s now it’s at a place in my life where I I’d I’d love if you happen to be a fan of Maserati, I’d love for you to own this key so that you too anyway.

John Jantsch (15:21.744)

Well wait a minute though. That that made made me my first bubble, thought bubble that went off in my head is did the stories have to be true? Yeah, yeah.

Don Yaeger (15:21.863)

You get it, right? And if

Don Yaeger (15:30.449)

No, they did in this particular case, they actually note in each story this story was created for this item by author Doug Dorst or you know, whoever it is. And but they make it clear. Now, I argue that the good stories we want to tell have to be true. Right. Now, could there occasionally be some embellishment for the terms for the for the value of speeding something along? Yes. but you know, we’re not.

John Jantsch (15:37.168)

How funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

John Jantsch (15:48.42)

Well of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (15:57.52)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (16:00.146)

We’re we we are in the we’re in the process of developing true stories.

John Jantsch (16:05.785)

So I I’m not sure we got through all four truths, but I I I want to circle back to one thing. all the best stories, like you said, are human, but also they’re probably personal for some people. and I some people are it’s hard for them to tell them. They don’t think anybody wants to know that part. they’re afraid it’ll make them look bad. but but but my guess is sort of the deeper or the more deeply personal, the more

Probably engagement. Yeah.

Don Yaeger (16:37.649)

Without question, because well, a couple of things happen. Number one, there’s probably as you’re telling the story, there’s some piece of it that they have lived too, right? So in some way they are on the journey with you as you’re telling your story. But secondly, they get a chance to know they know something about you that they didn’t know when the conversation began. And in the process, a connection is built, right? And we and we’ve already discussed it a couple different times. commerce occurs when connection is built.

John Jantsch (16:52.75)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (17:06.265)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Don Yaeger (17:07.313)

Right. And so if we can make sure that we are we’re finding ways to to become in relationship and sometimes my my ability to share my cancer journey, especially if I know that you’ve been on if you’ve had dealt with cancer, right? it will allow the two of us to w we we have that moment together. And and yes, a pr every great story has to have you in it in some way.

John Jantsch (17:37.391)

Yeah, and I think from a business standpoint too, you know, a lot of times when somebody encounters a business, all they see is, wow, this is a great business. but the story behind it is the struggle that actually made it. So I think has real value, doesn’t it? Yeah.

Don Yaeger (17:52.07)

Absolutely. It’s never you know, there are a lot of people like to look at you, me, people and say, wow, what how how incredible that success is. But that grinding that occurred 20 years ago when we were struggling to try to figure out how we were gonna pay that week’s that week’s grocery bill, that’s a that’s that’s it’s lost on most because we’re so busy assuming that everything has always been that way for John Jance or Don Yeager, right?

John Jantsch (18:11.471)

Yeah.

John Jantsch (18:21.199)

Right. So for particularly for a small business, do do you and I know you don’t necessarily consult on, you know, with small business owners in that way, but certainly the book covers information for them. do you is are there like three or four core stories that every business needs to have and be able to tell kind of at the drop of a hat?

Don Yaeger (18:43.603)

Completely. I would say number one, you know, we all would agree the origin story. You came together to solve, to, to, to, to cre to patch a hole in the universe. What was the whole? And what made you understand the whole? Like what was so so when I say the story behind the story, don’t tell me what you came along to solve. Tell me why you came along to solve it. what was it that made that happen? Number one. Number two,

John Jantsch (18:55.971)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (19:11.789)

there’s always a great story about some customer whose life you changed by doing really well at what you do. Tell me the story about one of your customers. Number three, tell me the story about one of your employees, right? It this so many of these stories they don’t have to, they don’t have to be about you, the owner. They’re they’re often more effective if they’re about the people that you have been that have been part of the journey with you.

John Jantsch (19:16.345)

Mm.

John Jantsch (19:26.829)

Right.

Don Yaeger (19:39.752)

And if you could tell me the story about one of your employees and how one of the things I mean, I I did some work the other day for a company that regularly they do call centers, they’re working with people in life insurance, and they were so taken by trying to deal with a man who was struggling with the with the loss of his wife, and he was just trying to figure out what the policy looked like. the person on the on the phone just realized, you know what, I want to send something extra to this guy. And so went online to Harry and David, sent some pairs.

To the man. The man writes a note to the CEO of the insurance company and says, there’s no way she could have known this, but pears were my wife’s favorite fruit. And that your employee was able to do something like that. That’s a story the CEO now gets to tell. And it what it says is this is how we care for the people that we consider our policy holders, right? The people that are our stakeholders. And this is the freedom I give my employees to care for them.

John Jantsch (20:18.892)

Mm.

John Jantsch (20:26.008)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (20:37.863)

There’s so much in that story that will make you attracted to his company, more so than one of the others, that it gives him a competitive advantage when he tells it.

John Jantsch (20:49.293)

Well and and certainly goes way beyond any kind of words on a website, you know, of we we care, we’re the carrying company, right? Trust us.

Don Yaeger (20:57.437)

We’re the carrying company. Let me give you our slogan and in fact let me show you the per the posters which which explain all of our core values, all twenty eight of our core values, right? none of which your employees can re can recite.

John Jantsch (21:10.925)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of small business owners, I I and and I wonder if you could just we could wrap this up with you just kind of giving them advice. don’t like to talk about themselves, don’t think they have a story. so how does if you were going to advise somebody whose job it was to create those core stories that the company should have, what do you think is the best way for them to get at that when there’s really not any ready access to it?

Don Yaeger (21:40.538)

So, I mean one of the things you might want to do is just literally there are lots of right now, there are lots of unemployed writers in the world, right? There are a lot of writers looking for jobs because newspapers are closing, magazines are closing. There are a lot of people who understand how to how to take stories and help them. So there’s plenty probably of access to talent. You can go to Fiverr and you can find all kinds of people. But more importantly, understand the story doesn’t have to be about you. If that’s your if that’s your place of discomfort, make the story about your customers.

John Jantsch (21:48.377)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

John Jantsch (22:04.397)

Yeah.

Don Yaeger (22:09.809)

Make that story about your employees. As I said, make that story about the moment that this that it became apparent that this company needed to exist. And yes, you might be included in the story, but it’s not about you. And if that’s a point of discomfort for you, there are plenty of ways to let the world know how special you are without pumping yourself up.

John Jantsch (22:34.637)

Well Don, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by is there some place you’d invite people to find out more about your work and certainly pick up a copy of the business of storytelling?

Don Yaeger (22:42.855)

Well, business storytelling is, as I love to say, available anywhere that that good books are sold. so if you go there and it’s not there, it’s not a good bookstore. but yeah, Amazon is a is a big is a big part of our our strategy. but they can also I’d love if they’re if they’re a friend of yours, reach out to me. I’m at Don Yeager dot com. And and I and I own all spellings of my last name so you can butcher it.

John Jantsch (22:50.219)

Yeah, yeah.

Don Yaeger (23:12.135)

And you will probably still end up at my website, but it’s Don Y-A-E-G-E-R dot com.

John Jantsch (23:17.143)

Yeah. Probably a lot of E’s before the A. Certainly. Well, and I would Well just like I own D D U C K marketing, as po a as well, ’cause a lot of people you still use that erroneously, so it directs to the right place. But and I would also encourage folks you know, if especially if you’re a fan of of good sports writing, certainly Don’s entire catalog.

Don Yaeger (23:20.049)

There is a lot of that.

And I own that site. I own that site too, by the way.

Don Yaeger (23:36.669)

Right. That’s right.

John Jantsch (23:46.228)

of of books would would have something for you there too. So well Don, it was great for you taking a moment to stop by and hopefully we’ll run into you again soon out there on the road.

Don Yaeger (23:54.362)

Always. Thanks, John.